| back |  home |

Col 891

[THE CONVENER opened the meeting at 10:04]

New Petitions

Sustainable Development (Communities) (PE741)

The Convener (Michael McMahon): Good morning, colleagues, and welcome to the 11th meeting in 2004 of the Public Petitions Committee. As usual, we have a busy agenda. We have received apologies from Carolyn Leckie, who is making her way to Edinburgh from the west—I assume that she has been caught up in the same problems that everyone else has had. I have also received apologies from John Scott, who is unable to attend the meeting—we expect Phil Gallie to be here to deputise for him.

The first item on the agenda is new petitions, the first of which is PE471, which is in the name of John Foster, on behalf of Govan community council. The petition calls on the Parliament to initiate an inquiry into the impact of Scottish Executive and Scottish Enterprise development targets and incentives on balanced and sustainable development at community level. John Foster is present to give evidence in support of his petition. He is accompanied by Mr Mike Dailly, who is the principal solicitor at Govan Law Centre. I welcome them to the committee—they have about three minutes in which to make an opening presentation, after which we will ask questions and discuss the issue further.

John Foster (Govan Community Council): Our concern is about the decline of Govan, which is one of Glasgow's historic working-class communities. In the past 10 years, Govan's population has declined by 20 per cent—22,000 people now live in Govan, Ibrox and Drumoyne. Of those people, 51 per cent of adults of working age are workless, which is double the rate for Glasgow and more than three and a half times the rate for Scotland. We are a community in serious decline and the question that we want to ask is how we have arrived at the decline and what can be done about it.

In the past 15 years, a large amount of land in Govan has been cleared of social housing, but instead of repopulating the land with affordable

Col 892

housing—which is what the community council argued for—Glasgow City Council and Govan Initiative Ltd have secured considerable sums of European development funding to build industrial units and offices. That strategy has created in the heart of Govan a vast and expanding industrial estate—known as the Helen Street corridor—which is turning Govan into a poverty-stricken ghetto for what remains of the population. Govan Initiative is working to deliver another 200,000ft2 of industrial and commercial accommodation in Govan. That comes at a time when, according to our calculations, half the industrial and commercial units in Govan are lying empty.

Our concern is that local economic development companies have become large commercial landlords and that, because European funding may be reduced from 2006, they are using commercial property as a source of revenue. In effect, the local economic development companies are engaged in a mission of self-fulfilment in which the most visible outcome is the propagation of the organisation. From the beginning, Govan Initiative's stated objective has been

"the relief of poverty by the alleviation of unemployment ... in ... Govan".

Given the workless figures that I have provided, we feel that Govan Initiative has manifestly failed.

Twenty years ago, the original mission of the local economic development companies was to create jobs for unemployed people in their communities. Mike Dailly and I ask the committee to consider the extent to which that aim is being achieved and the extent to which local economic development companies have built premises without considering the impact on vulnerable communities or the ability of those communities to sustain a critical mass of population, the community services that go with that and the social morale of what were strong and vibrant working-class communities. We argue that those features are key components in the fight against unemployment and poverty.

We invite committee members to come to Govan to see for themselves the dereliction and to find out about the experiences of ordinary people. We ask the committee to find a way in which the problem can be solved. Our argument is that, unless the matter is investigated by a Scottish parliamentary committee, the social inclusion agenda in Scotland will be not fulfilled but thwarted by the mechanisms that have been set up without due consideration being given to the way in which economic incentives such as industrial development and the building of units link with the sustaining of viable, balanced communities that can maintain their historic morale.

Col 893

The Convener: You have spoken specifically about Govan, but your petition relates to Scottish Executive and Scottish Enterprise targets. Are you aware of instances beyond Govan where the same failings are manifest, and can you give us examples so that we can look beyond the specific circumstances of Govan to the general problem that you perceive with Scottish Enterprise?

John Foster: It would be wrong of us to say that we know any other area in the same detail as we know Govan, but on the other hand we would say that other areas are in a similar position. We have spoken to people in Drumchapel, who say that they have had a similar experience. We note that the Clyde valley plan, which was published in 2000, mentions vulnerable town centres right across the Clyde valley, so we do not think that the problem is specific to Govan. Govan is probably one of the worst examples, but we think that there is a general issue and that is why we have brought it to the Scottish Parliament.

The Convener: That is helpful.

Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab): Everybody is trying to arrive at the model for a sustainable community, and I do not think that anyone sitting around this table would argue that some of the building programmes that went on in the 1950s and 1960s created sustainable communities. For me, it is very much a question of the balance between the industrial and the commercial and the kind of housing that is available, and I wonder where the balance has gone wrong. What do you think the ideal balance should be?

I am conscious that a lot of what happens is guided by structure plans and local plans—not just by the Glasgow and Clyde valley plans, but by much more localised plans. What discussions have you had with Glasgow City Council and what input have you had in developing the local plan for Govan?

Mike Dailly (Govan Law Centre): As we see it, the problem with balance is that European funding for a lot of local economic development companies will effectively dry up in 2006. We understand that that situation has resulted in many of those companies having to think about how they can get alternative streams of income to fund what they do. There is an incentive for the companies to become commercial landlords and to build properties, because they can then rent out those properties to offices and businesses, thereby generating an income. Our concern is that that is not part of what the picture should be and that it is causing a distortion in how the local economic development companies are operating.

We have tried to use the planning process. I represented the community council at a planning inquiry and we have tried to engage the

Col 894

community. For example, Govan Initiative has acquired an area of land called Teucharhill, where it is going to build offices. That area originally contained council housing and we knew that housing associations wanted to build houses there, but unfortunately we lost through the planning process. We are trying to do something about it, but it is extremely difficult.

Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): You said that few local people are employed in the industrial units that are built. I am concerned about that. Are there any initiatives to try to ensure that local people come into employment in the area?

I do not represent Glasgow and I have not lived there for many years, but I remember—more years ago than I care to remember, actually—that there were great hopes for Govan in connection with the community-based housing association movement and the wider initiatives that that brought. I particularly remember the Elderpark workspace initiatives to bring people living in local houses into employment through small business start-ups. What happened to that?

John Foster: The community council fully supports Govan Workspace Ltd and is represented on the board. The project has done a very good job within the limits of its capacity, but it has a relatively small number of units. There are probably more local people employed in those units than are employed in the Govan Initiative units, many of which are not filled.

We support the Govan Workspace project. It would be wrong to say that there are no training schemes that attempt to get young people involved, but the kind of people whom the commercial and industrial firms that come into the area want tend not to be the people we have in Govan. As a result, there is not a link between the population of Govan and the demands for employment.

The other problem is that most of the units are not filled, so employment is not provided. A vast amount of land that could have been used for housing is not available. We mentioned Teucharhill; that land could probably have accommodated a good 300 or 400 families. Moorpark, which is another area that was rezoned for industrial use, previously contained council housing and could easily have taken another 300 or 400 families.

Mike Dailly: Perhaps I could cut to the chase. The problem is that people often say that things are happening in Govan. They are, but there are all sorts of developments down by the Clyde—for example, the BBC and Scottish Television are coming—and, as John Foster said, that does not necessarily result in jobs for people in Govan.

Col 895

I think that our problem in Govan—I am sure that it is replicated in other parts of the city and elsewhere—is that no affordable housing is being built and, for the reasons that I outlined, the land that is freed up every now and again is being eaten up by the local economic development companies. We will face a bizarre situation. The fact that Glasgow City Council has put a lot of money into the private development of schools has been great for the delivery of new schools, but a problem that came out in our planning inquiry is that the decline in the population means that there will come a time when there will not be sufficient numbers of children in the area to sustain the primary feeder schools. As a result, Govan High School will have a question mark over it. Once the schools start to go in a community, the situation just implodes.

We honestly and sincerely believe that the problem is being exacerbated because the economic development company has a particular agenda. Although that agenda is a matter for the company, the company is not succeeding in linking up with the big picture.

10:15

Linda Fabiani: I have a wee supplementary question, which ties in with something that you said. We often hear criticisms of special initiatives for industrial units, for example, which involve firms relocating from other places and bringing their work forces with them. Do you think that that has happened?

John Foster: I am sure that that has happened. All the studies that have been done on such industrial and commercial developments and on warehousing show that that is largely the case. Not many new jobs are generated.

Linda Fabiani: If the housing stock is not there, people will not choose to live where they happen to move to work.

John Foster: Yes. Mike Dailly's point about the decline of services and the viability of a critical mass of population is very important. When we appealed against the city plan and the rezoning, we had the support of the local churches, the schools and their headmasters and the shops, because they all think that their future is tied up with the viability of the population.

We went round and counted the number of vacant shop units in the old, historic town centre of Govan, which is in Langlands Road and Govan Road. We found that a third of all the shop units—there were about 60 in total—are now derelict and untenanted. It is very difficult for local shopkeepers to keep going in such an environment. As transport and other services decline and shops close, the character of the community becomes

Col 896

non-viable; people do not want to live there. Even though housing might be available, because the population has declined, the morale of the population deteriorates.

There is a problem with housing and rent costs. One of the problems in Govan is that, with the increase in rents, the only people, by and large, who can afford to live in social housing are those who are on benefit. That means that people who are on a low wage or a reasonable wage will almost certainly move out, with the result that the community is not balanced. That problem has been accumulating for the past 15 years.

Mike Watson (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab): Good morning. I think that you have brought to us an interesting case. As someone who represents another part of Glasgow—one that is in the south-east of the city—I would like to ask a couple of questions about population. You mentioned that the population of Govan had gone down to 22,000 over the past 10 years. Do you know from what figure it has decreased? In many ways, the Gorbals area has similarities with Govan, and I discovered two figures when I visited Gorbals Initiative on Monday. Fifty years ago, 60,000 people lived in the Gorbals; the figure is now 10,000. Thirty years ago, 45,000 people lived in Castlemilk; today, 18,000 people live there.

In both those areas, the reduction in the population and in the high-density housing that, for many reasons, was not working is seen by the communities as a good thing. In many senses, the way in which the areas have been redesigned—if that is the right word—is positive, although that is not to say that there are no problems. A fall in population is not necessarily bad if it means that the type of housing has changed and that a mix of housing has been developed. Are you saying that that is not the case in Govan? Has there not been the same sort of development that has taken place in the two parts of Glasgow that I mentioned?

John Foster: When Govan was an independent borough in 1912, the population of the area that we are talking about was about 90,000. The population was dense and the area was slum ridden; the situation was pretty terrible. If the population had remained at 30,000, which is what it was in 1980, that would have been a viable level and the housing would have been of relatively low density. The problem is that, now that the population has fallen below that number, all the services are threatened. Several primary schools have closed and others will go. Govan High School is just hanging on.

Mike Dailly: To answer Mike Watson's point, there has been a lot of mixed-tenure new build in Castlemilk and the Gorbals. That is fantastic, but we have not had that sort of development in Govan. Every time that a bit of land has become

Col 897

free, our community council has tried to ensure that it is kept for residential use but we have been unsuccessful. It is quite difficult to do that when powerful economic development companies are involved. Would that Govan had the developments that have been started in Castlemilk and the Gorbals.

Mike Watson: I take the point that the overriding aim should be to support sustainable communities, but sustainable development is the primary aim of Govan Initiative, which is the local economic development company. Basically, you are saying that Govan Initiative and other local economic development companies have not successfully achieved that aim. I do not know Govan in detail, but I have had some dealings with Govan Initiative outside the main part of Govan, and it has a good reputation. Does Govan Initiative have the wrong targets or is it failing to meet its targets? What is the root of the problem?

Mike Dailly: We are not being critical just for the sake of it. We think that there is a structural issue. As the result of enlargement of the European Union, European structural funds and the various other moneys will all change in 2006. Like many local economic development companies, Govan Initiative now keeps a portfolio of properties as a secure source of funding for the future. Local economic development companies have had to get money into their organisations to deal with that structural issue, but as a result they have missed out on promoting sustainable balanced communities, which is the overriding aim that you mentioned. That is what is happening. A parliamentary committee needs to investigate the issue to get to the root of what has gone wrong.

Mike Watson: Govan is a social inclusion partnership area. I notice that your petition is on the headed notepaper of Govan community council. Is the community council represented on the board of the partnership so that it can make those points to the SIP? Of course, there are other ways of making such representation. Are other community groups represented on the SIP's board?

John Foster: The five community councils elect one representative to the community forum, which in turn has a representative on the board of the social inclusion partnership. I think that the SIP more or less shares our concerns about the rundown of Govan's population and the problems with affordable housing. I am not a member of the SIP board, but I sat in on its meeting on Friday so I know that it will make representations on the lack of provision for more affordable housing in the south-west Glasgow housing plan.

Mike Watson: The social inclusion partnership board could have quite an important role, given the contacts that it has. I sit on the board of the

Col 898

Castlemilk social inclusion partnership board. Does an MP or MSP sit on the board of the Govan SIP?

Mike Dailly: I think that Gordon Jackson and Mohammed Sarwar are co-opted members.

Mike Watson: Although the petition questions the role of Scottish Enterprise, it seems to me that the decisions about which we need to ask questions are taken at a much more local level, by bodies such as Scottish Enterprise Glasgow and Govan Initiative. It seems to me that the issue is not Glasgow-wide, but specific to Govan. That is what makes it so serious.

Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab): I note from our briefing papers that the Scottish Executive has a target of building 18,000 new and refurbished homes for low-cost rent and purchase over three years. Our notes also suggest that the structure plan and the local plan should safeguard town centres. From my experience as a member of planning committees, I know that the local plan is always key in decisions on planning permissions. What stage is your local plan at? If an area is halfway through the local plan process, that can have a bearing on what planning permissions are granted.

Mike Dailly: A city plan has been approved in Glasgow. Govan community council and Govan Law Centre tried to have an input to the plan, but without much success. In some respects, Govan has been—to use emotive language—sacrificed. We are a core economic development area in Glasgow and we are regarded as important to the whole of Glasgow. As a result, much of Govan has become industrial and, if members come to the area, they will see that huge chunks of it are an industrial wasteland. That has prevented the community from being sustainable. Of course business and sustainable development have to be encouraged but, as Mike Watson says, that has to be done in a joined-up fashion so that the community can be sustainable. That has not happened in Govan.

John Foster: In February, we went to see the planning department about the local plan. The department admitted that it had done virtually no work on it because of staff shortages. A member of staff had just been appointed and the department hoped to have a draft outline of the plan ready for discussion by the end of this year. The department had visited the old central Govan area and been quite shocked by the degree of dereliction.

A problem arises with the 18,000 houses that are to be built, because very little land is left in Govan on which to build them. The south-west area housing plan, which was discussed at a meeting of the social inclusion partnership on

Col 899

Friday, shows that only 12 housing units will be built in Govan and Drumoyne and only slightly more will be built in the adjacent area of Ibrox. The plan offers very little hope to our area.

Helen Eadie: When you visited the planning department, were you told what stage the local plan had reached? Is it at the end of its 10 years, is it halfway through, or is it right at the beginning?

John Foster: In the central Govan area, a new process will start. As I said, it is hoped that a discussion document will be ready this year—probably early in the autumn.

John Farquhar Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD): Good morning, gentlemen. As we have heard, the problem in some other areas is probably just as severe as it is in Govan. How do you relate your current problem to the industrial success that Govan enjoyed during the past century? The structure of the area has changed and efforts are being made to introduce a new culture into what was a huge industrial area. Difficulties must arise for anybody who is trying to develop a new economy.

Mike Dailly: As John Foster suggested, when new offices come to Govan, new jobs do not result for local people. Balance is important. Yes, we need industrial sites—and thank goodness we still have the shipyards—but the balance has tipped too far in favour of industrial development. We sincerely believe that Govan looks as though it is no longer a sustainable community.

When social problems develop and people want to move out of an area, they can do so only if they have the financial wherewithal. As the years go by, the people who are left are those on benefits. All sorts of social problems can develop when there is not a balanced community. It would be better for Glasgow—and good for business and the community—if we could create a sustainable and balanced community in Govan.

John Farquhar Munro: We seem to have a chicken-and-egg situation. What do we do first? Do we provide the industrial units, or do we provide the accommodation? Each is dependent on the other.

You said that things should be done in a joined-up fashion. If a company is developing industrial units in a particular area, perhaps there should be a commitment to provide social housing as well, so that the whole development is integrated.

Mike Dailly: Absolutely. It is planned that the multistoreys that are owned by the Glasgow Housing Association will come down. Many of them are in Ibrox. We understand that 500 families will be displaced but, because multistoreys are vertical, space will be created for only 75 new houses. As a result, there will be yet another

Col 900

reduction in the population. We do not want people to leave Govan; we want them to come to Govan. The solution is to build affordable mixed-tenure housing—private properties, housing association properties, social rented properties and so on. If that were to happen, we could bring people back to Govan, which would be good for everyone.

10:30

John Farquhar Munro: However, before that can happen, the budget that is allocated for industrial development would have to include money for the provision of housing. I would like that possibility to be promoted, because the two issues are not separate.

Mike Dailly: That sounds great.

The Convener: Mike Watson suggested that we deal with this issue as one that relates specifically to Govan and ask questions about the SIP's involvement.

Mike Watson: I was not talking about the SIP, although I have no objection to getting in touch with it. I think that, rather than following up the issue in a national context with the Scottish Executive and Scottish Enterprise, we should consider the situation in Glasgow. We should ask Scottish Enterprise Glasgow and Govan Initiative for their comments on the important issue that has been raised.

Linda Fabiani: That is absolutely right. However, we should write to the Executive because of the wider issues relating to the cities review that was conducted and economic development in general. Further, as housing is crucial to the Govan situation, we should also write to Communities Scotland and Glasgow City Council to find out what is planned for Govan. Only if a joined-up approach is taken will progress be made, so we need to have all the information that will allow us to join up the issues. We need to take a multipronged approach to information gathering in this case.

The Convener: As I said at the outset, we have to deal with this issue in the context of the Scottish Executive and Scottish Enterprise. Although the specific case of Govan raises certain issues, the petition asks for the Scottish Executive and Scottish Enterprise to be assessed in relation to the effect that they are having on Govan. That does not mean that we cannot ask other agencies specific questions about the situation in Govan, but we have to at least include the national bodies in our questioning.

Jackie Baillie: Rather than writing to everyone, we should try to obtain a local view. We should write to Margaret Curran, not least because of her

Col 901

responsibilities for planning, regeneration and housing, because she is fronting the cities review. We should also write to Jim Wallace because the local economic development companies will be operating to targets that the Scottish Executive has approved or signed off. We do not want different arms of the Scottish Executive working against each other when they should be working in concert.

Finally, I encourage the petitioners to make use of the fact that the local plan process is under way in Govan.

The Convener: Are members happy with that and with Mike Watson's recommendation that we also consider the specific situation in Govan?

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener: The information that we get back from the Executive might be helpful in terms of our understanding of the situation in Govan, but we must focus on the generality of the situation.